"Since the fiftieth anniversary of 1956, this will be the first October 23rd when we won't be hearing the chants of "Gyurcsány, get lost!" Does it give you some sense of satisfaction for the tear gas of three years ago - some of which you got at Astoria - that he finally did what he was called upon to do, and left the scene?"

"There is no need for satisfaction, for I could hardly imagine a more dignified way of celebrating 1956 than that of three years ago. I had never thought that a fifty-year anniversary had much significance, yet it was on our 50th anniversary that it became clear that we had made no progress from 1956. It's like when a child colours a piece of paper, and all of a sudden the pattern of a 50 Forint coin becomes visible - that is how I see the connection between the revolution and the 50th anniversary. It wasn't exactly the same, of course, it wasn't as magnificent and moving, but the pattern was identical. Fifty-three years ago, at the age of twenty-one, I experienced what it felt like when the suppression that society constantly lived under finally ended, and this common experience triggered a state of mind resembling that of being in love. I had a similar experience three years ago at Astoria. They fired something above our heads, and some burning thing - I don't know what - fell onto my hair, and people started shouting "Be careful!" There's something that connects even complete strangers to one another at such times."

"On May 1st, 1957, a huge crowd celebrated Kádár, what's more, the revolutionaries of the streets only numbered a few (20-30) thousand. Isn't it slightly illusory to talk about the great common revolution of the Hungarian people?"

"No, it isn't. Take this light bulb above us. Neither of us could design it, or produce it, just as several billion other people couldn't. And yet, everyone uses it. The revolution was a lightbulb like this one. It wasn't only those who actually took up arms or started organising who participated, but also those who stayed at home and waited to see what would happen. And when we were in prison, this feeling of togetherness, of belonging, remained. Of course, when I was released from prison after eighteen months, people would ask me reproachfully: "What was it exactly that you wanted?" These questions really surprised me at the time, I remember, for I had never felt that it was just us, a small group, who had wanted something, or that we had played a special part. Everyone wanted what happened then. Although the country denied its own revolution, that didn't mean it wasn't its own."

"So what was it that you wanted?"

"No one broods on this kind of thing when shouting "Russians go home!" I remember, we started shouting when we reached Margaret Bridge. Up till then, partly for reasons of caution, we shouted stupid things like "Soldiers of all countries should go home!" This sudden, revelation-like phrase of "Russians go home!" didn't mean just that they should leave Hungary, like they left Austria, and that we should be prosperous like them. When one sets off to have his head shot, that's not exactly the shortest route to prosperity. The revolution was the immune reaction of Hungarian society - this was how the organism which had been attacked responded to the pathogen that wanted to eliminate it. This is what the slogan of "Neither communism nor capitalism!" was about. It was not a very accurate programme, but it was something that roused us from our lethargy. At the time we could not yet see how both systems posed a threat to society."

"Those thirteen days were enough for you to plan some kind of future that was different from both communism and capitalism?"

"We had a few more months afterwards. We continued to fight in the Association of Hungarian University and College Students (Mefesz) until February. And why would it have been impossible for the workers to elect their own representatives in the factory? Perhaps it would have been possible to agree on a moderate kind of capitalism of small entrepreneurs. Of course, they always say that the hypothetical "What if" is an unhistorical remark."

"Well, isn't it?"

"On the last day of the siege, in 1945, the commander in charge of the cellar where we were staying sent my mother to shovel the snow in the garden. There had been no shooting for two days. She was playing with me - checkers, or something similar - when the man told her to go and shovel the snow, as it was her turn that day. My mother said she'd be right back, and went outside. The moment she stepped outside, into the garden, she was hit by a grenade. If the man had sent her out just one minute earlier, or one minute later, then I would not have lost my mother when I was ten years old. Why is this unhistorical? If the revolution had not been put down, the country might not have been torn into parties. A vision for the future existed. Of course, the most important thing is not what might have been, but what actually happened. It's like the Miracle of Fatima. Some ten thousand people saw the sun dancing in the sky. So what is the significance of it? No one knows, but having experienced the miracle together, when for a moment everyone shared the same happiness, is joyful. Nothing like this has happened in Hungary since the revolution. Nowadays, even the channels of conversation have frozen up. Take the metro, for example - I've been observing this for years - people don't look each other in the eye. It's as if a bunch of zombies were rattling along."

"But surely your life has improved in the past twenty years, since the proclamation of the republic on October 23rd 1989. In the People's Republic, after you were released from prison, you worked as a blue collar worker, then did proofreading, while after the change of the political system, you were finally permitted to lecture at university..."

"That's true, although that wasn't how it all started. First, I got the sack from the publishing house. Looking back, I can now honestly say that the person who sacked me did me a good turn. But those tens of thousands who have recently been made redundant can hardly say the same. I really don't think all of them can go and start teaching Chinese philosophy the following day, as I could at the time. It is evident that we haven't been able to create a sustainable, well-functioning system in the past twenty years. As a follower of ecopolitics, I have been talking for quite some time about the unsustainability of the present form of capitalism, and now that the economic crisis is here, I can pat myself on the back. But that doesn't make anyone think about the essence of it all, that this crisis is just a symptom of the disintegration of society, and that the different regimes cannot really offer a solution. The process whereby Hungarian villages lost their capacity for subsistence was most forceful during communism, but capitalism can't stop devastation either. Interestingly enough, when Kádár or Grósz wanted to destroy the Danube by building the dam, amicable Austria aided them. If we look at it from the point of view of probable ecological catastrophe, communism is simply an exceptionally unpleasant type of capitalism."

"Well, the Danube was spared - thanks to the change of the political system."

"It has been in constant danger ever since."

"Well, at least one of the demands voiced in 1956, that of a free, independent, democratic state, has become a reality... "

"A free, democratic state? Surely that's some kind of a joke? Not even during the Soviet occupation were we as restricted as we are now by the IMF. I'm stunned when I listen to the news, I can hardly believe my own ears: they say the Institution for Blind People may receive the money needed for it to operate, after all. This really is the world of Dürrenmatt. When they're thinking of closing the National Institution for Blind People, or that the children don't get food to eat..."

"In any case, it is not probable that Viktor Orbán, whom you referred to as the "warrior of light" before the previous elections, will leave the framework of capitalism."

"It is possible that the term warrior of light was a bit of an exaggeration on my part, but I am a painter who primarily experiences things through his eyes. I could not have predicted what would happen economically if Gyurcsány won, but when I saw his face on TV, I was shocked and thought that he was wearing the mask of darkness. Compared to him, Orbán seemed like a warrior of light, and I'm not ashamed of what I said then, because it has since been proved that if he had been elected in 2006, we wouldn't be where we are now. What's more, he recently spoke about a new era and how this type of capitalism was over. I liked that. And I see other promising signs, too. It seems that Zsolt Páva (mayor of Pécs) has managed to recover the water works of Pécs. When I saw on TV that they hauled down the French flag and raised the Hungarian one, I was really pleased. Not that I have anything against the French, but the changing of the flags was a sign that it was possible to end something and start something new, something of our own."

"And it's no problem if the way you start something new is questionable from a legal point of view?"

"I'm a law-abiding citizen, but only in the sense that I observe the law. I don't respect it. How could I respect the law when it allows chicken factories to exist? Laws that allow innocent animals to be in pain, to suffer. If I were taken away and tortured - luckily, this didn't happen while I was in prison - I would at least know that I was suffering for my country, which would elevate my suffering. It would be easier for me than for the chicken, which hasn't a clue about anything, but feels pain and suffers just like me. The human foetus is an innocent, unknowing, yet sensitive creature - yet this rule of law does not object to serial killings being committed on foetuses. Not to mention that in the past twenty years, gross injustices have been committed lawfully - for example, golden handshakes worth 100 million Forints are legitimate. In any case, what Lajos Kósa (Fidesz mayor of Debrecen) recently said sounded quite promising: that quite unusual - although not illegal - measures would be taken next year. I certainly hope so. If we want to celebrate in a truly dignified way in 2010, standing around in the streets will not suffice. We will need to act."

"Will you go out into the streets to celebrate this year?"

"Of course. I regularly go to demonstrations, and I won't spend October 23rd at home this year, either. I'll shout if I have to. Although it's true that the fire in me is slowly weakening. So I'll shout out of honour. I don't want anyone thinking that glum-looking old man is just standing about..."