Morvai: Let me ask you one question. In the autumn of 2006, Péter Gusztos observed that those who were imprisoned - innocently, as it turned out later, - actually deserved it, Gábor Demszky awarded a medal to Péter Gergényi, who had given orders to shoot demonstrators in the eye and have their fingers torn off, Gábor Kuncze joked about Máriusz Révész, who had been beaten up (by the police). After all this, how can a member of the Free Democrats be an credible advocate of human rights?

Mohácsi: I work in the European Parliament, so I am not familiar with the details of the events that took place in 2006, but I certainly condemn the police for beating someone up, whoever that person may be. Of course, here at home, whatever topic comes up, if one side has an opinion, then the opinion of the other side has to be the exact opposite. This unhealthy state of affairs can lead to reactions like these.

Morvai: When members of the European Parliament protest - and quite right they are to do so - against dictatorial incidents in the Third World, but do not protest against what happened in Hungary in 2006, then I see a double standard that is unacceptable. I believe that a Hungarian member of the European Parliament, what's more, someone whose field is human rights, cannot afford to be unfamiliar with what is happening here at home in this area.

Mohácsi: You're asking me why I don't mention these cases on the European stage? The Roma issue is most important to me, since I am personally concerned. I have even renounced my membership in the Women's Rights Committee because of it. It's one of my priorities, but I don't have enough time for it.

Morvai: That's a pity. I worked for women's rights for four years at the United Nations, so it's one of my priorities, too. And if you were a member of the committee as a Roma, you would especially be standing up for the defenceless. When there are Roma on both sides, i.e. when the perpetrator and the victim are Roma, male Roma leaders fail to deal with these issues out of shyness. The victims are mostly women, who are subject to physical violence, to the maffia who steals their welfare benefits, to usurers, and often to trafficking in women by family members.

Mohácsi: My mother went to school for six years, my father only had four years of schooling, I grew up in a small village near the Romanian border, in the gypsy colony, with five brothers and sisters - maybe I have a little more experience about this environment than you do. Discrimination against Roma women within Roma communities is no worse than the discrimination that non-Roma women experience within their own community. Of course, it's true that if we spend millions of euros on abolishing discrimination against women, then it would be a crime to leave the Romas out of it.

Morvai: Let's hope that money reaches those who are targeted, and that Roma leaders don't lay their hands on it in the meantime.

Mohácsi: You must be alluding to the Orbán Kolompár affair. If he did misappropriate that money, then that is a serious problem indeed, but what is even more serious is that the money intended for the Romas does not get to them. I, too, am angry with the government, for in the national development plan, Roma local governments and non-governmental organizations cannot be beneficiaries. I sweated blood in the European Parliament and finally succeeded in getting three hundred million euros for desegregation, and today, this money is invisibly trickling away. So, at the moment, it's primarily the reponsibility of the government and the settlements, and not that of the Romas: even the mayors belonging to my party are not willing to abolish the ghetto schools. If they made a decision like that, they could supply their settlements with one hundred and fifty million forints. But they don't want the Roma children to sit next to the non-Roma children at school.

Morvai: And what do you think, Viktória, why don't they want to do that?

Mohácsi: Because they are prejudiced. Maybe there are a few dirty Roma children. But the fact that someone had nits in their hair in their childhood cannot determine all their prospects in life. Today it determines the prospects of their schoolmates, as well, because people generalise. Similarly to when they start mentioning Roma criminality.

Morvai: I'm sorry, but I had to take an exam in that subject. There was a chapter in Katalin Gönczöl's Criminology coursebook entitled Roma criminality.

Mohácsi: Anyone who wrote such a book should have been sent to prison! If we accepted this way of thinking, you should be on the look-out for your purse, because stealing is in my genes - even though I have never stolen anything in my life, not even a matchstick. Even if I were the only exception, you should still not be allowed to use such hurtful, offensive and generalizing terms.

Morvai: You've misunderstood. This term did not mean genetic determination in criminology, they simply described the fact that there are forms of perpetration and types of crimes where the proportion of Romas is significantly higher.

Mohácsi: Of course, but this is not Roma criminality, it's scraping by on petty crime. Since the proportion of Romas is greater among those living in poverty, it is no surprise that it is also higher among those who commit crimes typical of people living on the margin of society.

Morvai: The concept of scraping by on petty crime is unacceptable. It implies that these criminals must be forgiven.

Mohácsi: No, they do not have to be forgiven. We must not forgive them. I don't like the expression, either, for exactly this reason. In the event of a double victory, we could be allies in the European Parliament. Because we must fight against crime. What's more, there are areas where these forms of perpetration must be distinguished, otherwise we won't be able to measure effectiveness. But we cannot talk about Roma criminality. Moreover, it's not the same thing if someone misappropriates billions in a political position, or steals their neighbour's hen.

Morvai: What is common between them is that both are stealing, and that the state does not defend the victim. Neither in the case of European Union money being embezzled, nor when the owner of the hen is left defenceless.

Mohácsi: And this is where the politics of Jobbik fails. It has chosen a bad target when the Hungarian Guard chants "Roma criminality" and so forth. In truth, they are angry with Gyurcsány because he can't protect them from crime, yet they incite against the Romas. I'm not saying they should knock Gyurcsány on the head, of course, that would also be unacceptable. But it would be a lot more understandable, logically, than picking on a group of people, and blaming them for everything. Also, it is not up to the Hungarian Guard to set things to rights.

Morvai: No, but since the state is not doing anything, it is understandable that they want to show their solidarity - with their presence at least - with all those who lay their heads down to sleep each night not knowing if they shall find their gardens stripped of produce by the morning, if their throats are not cut during the night, that is.

Mohácsi: But the Hungarian Guard are not protecting anyone! They're not standing guard around the gardens, making sure that the non-Romas are not hurt. They simply march down the gypsy colony, intimidating those who live there. I was there, in Fadd. "You're going to die," was what they hissed in my face. I found seven different cases just recently where the aggrieved parties were Romas, and it is not known what caused the attacks. The motive was racism.

Morvai: Saying things like that is intolerable, but non-Roma victims suffer from robbery and assault on a daily basis, and we don't know what motivates the Roma perpetrator. If you bear in mind someone's origin when the injured party is Roma, then do not label anyone as a racist simply because they keep count of when the perpetrator is Roma.

Mohácsi: They're completely different cases. If a Roma steals a hen, he doesn't do it because the owner of the hen is not Roma. He simply needs the hen, he wants to feed his children. I'm not trying to acquit him of the crime of theft, all I'm saying is: it's all the same to him who he steals the hen from.

Morvai: It's not that simple. On the one hand, Romas are born into this world for the same reason as everyone else. So that their lives have an aim, so they have a profession, a calling in life. However, today they have no means to realize all this, and the state is to blame. The tension caused by this is directed against the majority society, and some Romas vent their anger through aggressive crimes, with the belief that stealing from a Hungarian is not a crime.

Mohácsi: That is not so. The thief doesn't stop to think whose hen he's stealing.

Morvai: Tell me, Viktória, why does the burden of responsibility exist only on one side? It is exactly because of this that Romas are looked down upon and treated as second-class citizens. The liberal elite pretends that the Romas can't help stealing and consequently cannot be held responsible. But they must know that by stealing, they are committing a crime. This is the first step towards crime prevention. The trouble is, the liberal intellectuals apply two different standards. On the one hand, they are individualistic, but when it comes to people living on the margin of society, they treat them as children. They declare that these people are entitled to welfare benefits, never mind if they get used to receiving them. And not to prospects or possibilities, which - together with individual responsibility - could lead to a dignified life. It is impossible to reduce crime without stressing the importance of individual responsibility.

Mohácsi: We're not taking the burden of individual responsibility off anyone's shoulders, but what happens if you are born a Roma, you live a decent, honest life, and a policeman comes to your house and lectures you on stealing? You would throw him out of your house, I'm sure. No government programme or Hungarian Guard should want to re-educate the Roma people.

Morvai: That is why it would be great if the Roma population developed an effective programme aimed at preventing crime.

Mohácsi: You want me to stand up against a broad-shouldered, hefty usurer, a criminal? Would you be willing to teach non-Roma politicians not to steal?

Morvai: I'm trying. In each of my speeches, I try to make them realize that any of them who steal must go to prison. I'm sure that communication would do no harm in the case of the Roma population. For example, if we asked those concerned what they would like, and not the Romas living on Rose Hill.

Mohácsi: I come from a little village myself, I've already told you that. You ask what a Roma woman would like? A better future. The same as the Hungarian Guard. In her case, that would mean having a job, a salary, and that her child attend a normal school, not one for the disabled. She won't be able to say more than that.

Morvai: Our understanding of democracy is completely different. I believe people are not stupid. And in a democracy, a politician represents the will of the people.

Mohácsi: They're not stupid, it's true, but Hitler realized the will of the people, didn't he?

Morvai: So you think anyone thinking along the lines of democracy is a Hitler?

Mohácsi: No, of course not. But the will of the people can be dangerous. A politician understands the interests of the people, and represents them, not the will of the people. Auntie Mary cannot make the kind of decisions that you can.

Morvai: Maybe she can't make decisions, but I would rather not leave her out of the preparatory work, if you don't mind. During the campaign, I plan to visit Roma people living in rural areas. I'm not just interested in what their problems are, and what would make them happy, I would also like to hear what they would do to solve these problems. Would they like to have a plot of land? Would they like to get the factory, which was privatized by businessmen affiliated to the Free Democrats, back again? A programme works well only if the participants are motivated. So there is no chance for a better future if we don't ask them about it. Having done that, we can start making strategies to abolish poverty. Ones that work well, for the Socialists and the liberals have failed to present them.

Mohácsi: The Free Democrats have prepared strategies. I myself suggested to the government that people who have not completed eight years of primary school should be allowed to take part in the Start-card programme, in order to help them find work. They didn't take me at all seriously. Even though there are three or four thousand people in this situation, and there are billions of forints at the government's disposal. It took me two months of lobbying before the passage about those who have not completed the eight years of primary school was finally entered into the programme, but they told me that they would not pay for the bus passes of these people. Well, they won't be able to get to their place of work, to the re-training programme otherwise. If politics is surrounded by incompetent experts, if they just hastily draw up something, because they have a date, or have to hurry to the cinema, well, this is the result.