"Didn't your wife say: "No more excuses, Laci, this is it."

"You mean about my hair?"

"Yes. You promised that the moment Gyurcsány left the scene, you'd go to the hairdresser's and finally get a haircut."

"Not quite. First of all, this promise has more or less been forced on me. My hair had grown long on its own accord, and then someone once asked me why. So I jokingly replied that I'd have it cut when the Russians left the country. Then the press interpreted it in such a way as if I had said: I'll go to the hairdresser's when Gyurcsány resigns. Which, incidentally, is not at all topical, for now that Gyurcsány is leaving office, the Russians have just come in - at least as far as Mol is concerned."

"As a member of the National Security Committee, do you know more about the background of the deal than the general public?"

"No, and there is nothing surprising about that. We cannot presume that the Director-General of the National Security Office, Sándor Laborc, serves the interests of the Hungarian nation. When it became evident that the Russians were going to use the energy weapon against Europe, the committee put the topic on the agenda. At the time, Laborc was only the deputy Director-General, and in an offensively cynical way, he remarked that we all live in a market economy, and as we invest in Russia, so do the Russians invest in Hungary."

"There is some truth in that, after all..."

"There is no "after all" for that expansionist market participant is the Russian state. What kind of market logic can explain why they paid twice as much for the shares than what they were actually worth?"

"Laborc worked for one of the security services during the Fidesz-government, too. Do you regret not having done a clean-up at the time?"

"The decision made twenty years ago regarding the security services seemed a suitable one: it was the golden mean between the Romanian model, where they simply changed the name-plates, and the Czech model, where the whole (effective) force was sent away. In Hungary, those specialists who had not been politically compromised were given the opportunity to serve the nation from then on, instead of the single-party state. In the past few years, the National Security Office was so badly corrupted by Laborc and György Szilvásy that sending away a couple of people probably won't be enough. The manner in which the Office was reorganized makes one wonder whether they weakened counter-intelligence on purpose. The extent of damage is not the same in all the services. In some, a change of government will suffice, in others, a "change of system" will be necessary."

"Which one is necessary from the point of view of the nation?"

"Both are. The reason the country is in its present state is due primarily to the fact that twenty years ago, justice was not done. There were no legal, financial or even moral consequences of certain people's actions, for example, that they had had people hanged, or had robbed the masses, or had banished hundreds of thousands of people from the country, or had crippled those who remained, leaving them with 23 billion dollars worth of public debt. What's more, József Antall even thanked them for having handed over the country in order."

"The "people", however, elected them democratically, from the cadres at hand."

"It's just that now, when it has become evident that the change of system didn't work out, we must finally admit that it's not just the formal institutions that ensure democracy, but also the common belief of the people operating them. Today people must face an existential crisis from which the only way out is if they know for certain that never again will anyone be able to get away with doing this to them. In 1990 we could easily have extended the limits of the constitutional state a little further. Today this is more difficult, but we must try to do what is possible within the frame of the constitutional state."

"Do you mean prison? Confiscation of property? Exclusion from public life?"

"There will evidently be cases that have lapsed, others that can be proved, but cannot be tied to concrete individuals. Some will not be deemed illegal, although they are villainous. An inventory must be made of all of these, and the names must be made public."

""I want to hear names!" This was the programme of the rock group Kárpátia (translator's note: a right-wing, nationalistic band)."

"They're not the only ones who want to hear names nowadays: there is a lot more pressure now than in 1990, when there wasn't enough. I'm not just talking about holding Gyurcsány and his ministers accountable for their actions - I'm also talking about those officials who are now trying to conclude contracts whereby they hope to ensure lucrative posts for their buddies for many years to come."

"It's not just your hair that's growing, but also the number of people figuring on your death-list. I can just see the headlines."

"That's all you can say, isn't it? Scaring people. I've grown used to it."

"Besides promising that people will have to account for their actions, can you also promise that once you're in power, the age of millions of forints trickling away in the form of consultancy contracts will finally come to an end?"

"Of course, what's more, you're putting me in a comfortable position, for there is nothing left to take out of the treasury. There may be cases where the professional apparatus of ministries is not enough. The trouble is that the task of the state apparatus today is to sign contracts with companies that will then do the work of the apparatus. It's not just the rule of law that has disintegrated; the state itself has, too."

"Gordon Bajnai promises to create revenue."

"Good morning, that's the same lie László Kovács told. Ferenc Gyurcsány was the person who brought this kind of politics to perfection, and now Bajnai is continuing it. Incidentally, he hasn't promised revenues yet, just restrictions."

"He said the restrictions would hurt. Are you saying that's not true?"

"Earlier on, he had announced that his government had a mandate to do such and such... when in fact, his government doesn't have a mandate to do anything. Not even what Gyurcsány's government had a mandate to do. Gyurcsány, who kept the economic data secret, who introduced a law on tax reduction, knowing that even the commas and the "ands" in it were lies. But at least he had been elected, if not to do what he actually ended up doing. But no one has elected Gordon Bajnai, except for his accomplices."

"So you're saying the Hungarian constitution is bad?"

"It could do with some amendments, but that's not the reason why we are in the position that we're in today."

"Well, the constitution allows for this change of prime minister."

"It only offers the framework. We can't explicitly write that villains must not be allowed to form a government. It's not the constitutional system that is bad, it's society that is weak. Democracy can only work if there is a democratic communal belief that everyone adheres to."

"Will Fidesz accept it if there is no such thing? Your party was not even responsible for organising the demonstration held at the weekend, where participants demanded early elections."

"The fact that one hundred thousand people flock onto the streets doesn't necessarily mean something is going to happen, but even ten thousand people may suffice if the vast majority of society agrees with them. However, not since the autumn of 2006, when our democracy was abused, has it happened here in Hungary that more than half of the eight million prospective voters feel it should be up to them to decide. This is the first time such a situation has occurred, but we're still within the margin of error."

"But you're basically offering up to Jobbik those voters who wish to demonstrate."

"This is truly a dilemma, for we have had quite negative experiences with Jobbik. When - after the events of October 23rd - a group of lawyers, led by Tamás Gaudi-Nagy and Krisztina Morvai, felt that it was their duty to help those in trouble, we were pleased. Without us, they might not have been able to speak in the European Parliament. Unfortunately, what was positive about that initiative is counterbalanced by the way in which Krisztina Morvai uses it to climb onto the stage of party politics. While the majority of people who support Jobbik are basically well-intentioned, I cannot say the same about their leaders. They've already done a lot of harm and will, no doubt, continue to do so. In 2002, MIÉP took 4.6 percent of the votes, in 2006, together with Jobbik, they got 2.2 percent. The Socialists wouldn't have stood a chance without them."

"Maybe you should have founded a racist section within the party."

"I'm convinced that it is not the unacceptable ideas that attract the sympathizers of Jobbik, it's just so much easier for them to accept simple answers to complicated questions. On the other hand, the fact that someone dislikes Ferenc Gyurcsány even more than I do doesn't necessarily mean that we're on the same political platform."

"Does such a person exist at all?"

"I don't know."

"Not that it matters, for Gyurcsány has stepped back. When he first appeared, they said it would be great for Fidesz. Are you as optimistic regarding Bajnai?"

"We never said that Gyurcsány was a top prize, but he did pave the way towards the grave of the Socialist Party. Now Bajnai can cut the ribbon at the opening of that road. There is only one thing that is certain nowadays, and that's uncertainty. Many people think they can surmise what the effects of Bajnai's austerity package will have, but we can't know for sure."

"More than 70 percent of those surveyed think the austerity measures are necessary."

"In theory, while they only affect others."

"If this is true, then it's better from Fidesz's point of view if Bajnai does the dirty work and reaps what he and Gyurcsány have sown."

"And then what? They get on a plane to Bali or Moscow, where their masters feed them from a golden trough, and we will have to reap what they have sown. There is no Fidesz point of view: the party's interest is the same as the interest of the whole country. We can only be a strong, long-term governing force if we can get the country back on the right track. And since every single day that the Socialists spend governing causes further damage, the later the elections are held, the more difficult it will be to change direction."